Curse

isamu kurosawa · Aug 14, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

I think that there are some ways to encourage diffrent style of play eg. better rewards for more proffesion diversified teams.

To an extent there is. If you run a non tank oriented team runs tend to go faster, meaning more loot overall. If you are less skilled and run a tank setup you can get through but at a slower pace.

That was another problem with ursan, it made the bad players clear areas as dast as good players. People can call it elitest but i see a skill that makes less skilled players perform as well as or even better than skilled players i say it is over powered and bad for the game.
It is the same in PvP. Things that make inexperienced pvp players roll teams of top players are unbalanced.

The worst part is the inexperienced players only every learn to play that setup, so when it gets nerfed they believe completing their goals has become impossible.

Selket · Aug 14, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

I think that there are some ways to encourage diffrent style of play eg. better rewards for more proffesion diversified teams.

I think there should be rewards that make doing it worthwhile to begin with.

Phineas · Aug 14, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

...
The worst part is the inexperienced players only every learn to play that setup, so when it gets nerfed they believe completing their goals has become impossible.

And this is why I despair at the amount of abuse sent in their direction. That's the last thing they need.

Ping them a workable build or tell them the fundamental skills to build around or even point them to wiki. They will still have to complete or learn how to use the build so it's not like they're going to steal your slot in the PuG for a hour or so at least.

That person you help then goes and passes on info to his previous Ursan-playing friends/guild saying "Hey, this works, let's go!" and the next batch of 'elite area' players is born. It's really not so different to how most of the 'experienced' players got there.

Ursan caused a spike in respect levels amongst players, we need to put that behind us and move on.

Or don't we want them to learn?

Snow Bunny · Aug 14, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

Or don't we want them to learn?

They don't want to learn.

I recall my oldest gw friend pming me about 2 months ago. We chatted for a bit and he asked what I was up to. I was in a FoW group with some alliance buddies (miss you evoooo

) and were looting after we had finished.

I said, "Yeah, just finished FoW. 44 minutes HM."

He pms me back, "What build, ursan?"

Me: "No, a bunch of Dervishes, warrior, assassin, paragon, and orders."

My friend: "Don't be a liar. Wars sins and gons don't deal enough damage. And no one can clear that fast, even with Ursan."

me: "I just screenied our time. It's 44 minutes. The team does plenty of damage."

him: "Impossible. Maybe splinter barrage or SFs if they were all clumped, but that'd still take 2 hours."

And so on...

Most players really don't want to learn. Many posters here on Guru refer to Assassins as overly nerfed in PvE and Paragons as the Nerfagon.

I can shove numbers and facts in their faces all I want: Crit Agility, MS/DB, imbagon, etc.

Doesn't change their seriously misguided and stubborn opinion about it. The day the GW populace learns to properly play this game is the day I wake up in bed next to Reese Witherspoon.

I mean, it'd be awesome. But it's just not gonna happen.

Stuart444 · Aug 14, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

snip

seriously? Wow.........did you even try uploading a screenshot (including showing what professions along with the /age command) and showing the person it?

ah well can't do much about it I supposed unless people actually want to learn

edit: OH and btw, I have never been against or for Ursan but that guy saying "What build, ursan?" really ticks me off, I have never and will never consider it a build (even when I used it, I never even implied it was a build). I consider it a skill. >_<

Phineas · Aug 14, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

They don't want to learn.

Maybe a little harsh to assume that all of them don't want to learn, especially those I see begging for the builds in DoA and ToA.

Snow Bunny · Aug 14, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

Maybe a little harsh to assume that all of them don't want to learn, especially those I see begging for the builds in DoA and ToA.

I want lists of names of players begging for builds. I will be glad to spade them out builds. All I see is players asking for HB monks, Obs tanks, and nukers.

Phineas · Aug 14, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

ToA is where I've been mostly, of late. US districts. You should not have to wait long for one to come along

Tearz1993 · Aug 15, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Personal initiative is key.

This.

Snow is never wrong.

Dante the Warlord · Aug 15, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Well in UW HM SC they use consets, which cost money. If they lose, they lose money, which isn't worth it. And PUGs are always like that... Its a shame really, the GW environment is filled with angry little kids who can't play nicely. They aren't flexible because most of them only stick to the wiki page, not knowing what skills synch up with what...

Trub · Aug 15, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

As for the OP - I agree that Ursan opened the doors for more people. Before Ursan, and after Ursan, there were cookie cutter builds, and that won't change.

Imbagon much?

Me?
HAHAHAAHAAAAHA!

If you knew me...you would be rolling on the floor right now...

EVERY team I have joined for DoA.UW/FoW/Urgoz/Deep..ect,
It is the same question directed at me:

"Hey Trubz, what weird-assed bar you running tonite?"

oh yeah babybeee!
Here's MY 'Imbagon'..hahahaa!!

Bryant Again · Aug 15, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Then they are a waste of man power and resources.

Just because it doesn't cater to the majority of players doesn't mean it's a "waste of resources". If that were so, then HM, high-end armors and even PvP would be considered a "waste". It's just ANet providing to multiple types of players, and in this they're doing great.

Not to mention that everyone and anyone can see every area in the game, provided they are good enough. And since there's always room for improvement, there's little excuse.

Wrath of m0o · Aug 15, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Personally, im sick of watching my friends quit this game to the never ending Nurf Bat.
If this is going to be the same thing in GW2, my full HoM can rot in hell while i revert to playing CS:Source, wich is now more fun than the Holy Trinity.
Back to playing with hero's.

Jenn · Aug 15, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

Me?
HAHAHAAHAAAAHA!

If you knew me...you would be rolling on the floor right now...

EVERY team I have joined for DoA.UW/FoW/Urgoz/Deep..ect,
It is the same question directed at me:

"Hey Trubz, what weird-assed bar you running tonite?"

oh yeah babybeee!
Here's MY 'Imbagon'..hahahaa!!

I'm confused.
I wasn't calling YOU the imbagon, but I don't want to get too personal in public.

And by the way, I do know you (somewhat). I was kinda in the same guild as you for a while, after you left SMS.

draxynnic · Aug 15, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnel Ithtirsol

It took 5 hours to max Norn during one of the double reward points weekends. It took much longer to max LB and SS.
Do you mean to say that starting a new character of the "desired" (read: elitist, holy trinity) profession and completing NF is faster?

Maybe not... but it would be more fun...

Quote:

I hope you are right. But the only possible way that I see this happening is if ANet buffs the "undesired" professions to the point where they are better than the current "desired" professions AND there are different builds posted on pvx straight after that.

I actually suggested something like that earlier in this thread - buff the 'undesired' professions in PvE up to the point where the PuG meta is forced to sit up and take notice, then bring them down to something reasonable if necassary.

It's possible that they're even doing this - some of the buffs in the monster update were big. But it's going to take time to filter through.

Hrrmn... maybe something else we need is to have more people (possibly guild-based) willing to stand up and say "We're going to take a non-Holy Trinity group in... who's with us?" One of the most fun experiences I've had was back in Prophecies when, with a massive clamour of people offering and requesting runs to ToA, a guildie and I declared we were going to fight our way through. The team filled up in seconds.

Maybe something similar would happen in ToA if three or four people were willing to say "Roll up, roll up, we can switch out to alternate characters to make sure the balance is good, we'll take ANYONE!"

DarkGanni · Aug 15, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Few words about Sins, Rits and Paragons in toa.

1. Most toa players don't know what a paragon exactly does (or his skills to be precise) also not to mention that very little paragons are seen there.

2. To most the Sin is the Perma SF or the low armor profession that teleports in and dies and have to add that some people don't even know how to use a proper build.

3. I notice few rits in toa and like the paragon they don't know what exactly a rit can do and this is sad cause a rit is very versatile when it comes to builds.

That's my point of view in these 3 professions. Players keep asking for the usual stuff SS necro, Nuker, OB Tank (yawn mode), HB Monk and last but not least a bonder. *sigh*

- Ganni

Amnel Ithtirsol · Aug 15, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Maybe not... but it would be more fun...

I actually suggested something like that earlier in this thread - buff the 'undesired' professions in PvE up to the point where the PuG meta is forced to sit up and take notice, then bring them down to something reasonable if necassary.

It's possible that they're even doing this - some of the buffs in the monster update were big. But it's going to take time to filter through.

Hrrmn... maybe something else we need is to have more people (possibly guild-based) willing to stand up and say "We're going to take a non-Holy Trinity group in... who's with us?" One of the most fun experiences I've had was back in Prophecies when, with a massive clamour of people offering and requesting runs to ToA, a guildie and I declared we were going to fight our way through. The team filled up in seconds.

Maybe something similar would happen in ToA if three or four people were willing to say "Roll up, roll up, we can switch out to alternate characters to make sure the balance is good, we'll take ANYONE!"

The skil update was a step in the right direction but... Dervs for example still got shafted.
(In PvE) I'd like to see them buff the forms a bit, make AoG usefull again or add another skill similar to Shadow Form. (One would expect a "god-form" to be god-like, not true?) Most dervish elites are still useless. There is just so much that can be done to make them more viable for PuGs to consider. I'm not holding my breath though...

And Imbagons are extremely valuable to physical teams, no doubt. The problem is that you dont see a lot of those around. The Tank & Spank mentality keeps them out for now...

Maybe the nerf came to soon?
I don't know... All I know is that things are back to the way it used to be and that, in some respects, is much worse than a single overpowered skill. Lots of peeps are leaving the game, for this and other reasons, but lots of peeps dont care.

It would seem then, after reading the thread again, that the solution to this whole PuG crisis would be to just change and adapt to what the majority considers desired. Anet should just drop all but the core professions and get it over with. Freedom of choice is a bad thing when stupidity rules.

Lopezus · Aug 15, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Not to mention that everyone and anyone can see every area in the game, provided they are good enough.

Wishful thinking.

1. Is being skilled enough helps me find group in eg. ToA ? - uhm... nope.
2. Is being skilled help me to ease or speed my way through areas ? -yes but since i can't find a group it doesn't matter again.

The list can go on but important fact is that 'elite areas' don't initaially check on your skills. There are diffrent factors at stake which is imo a bad thing.

JONO51 · Aug 15, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

They just need to ruin tank n spank. As in, more AoE flee in NM, tone down some common builds/skills etc.At the same time, slightly buff some others so people think, "hey, now I cant tank everything, maybe I'll try that instead". It may not work out just like that, but really, if that sort of thing happened, players should realise that their way is too slow.

Kusandaa · Aug 15, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

They just need to ruin tank n spank. As in, more AoE flee in NM, tone down some common builds/skills etc.At the same time, slightly buff some others so people think, "hey, now I cant tank everything, maybe I'll try that instead". It may not work out just like that, but really, if that sort of thing happened, players should realise that their way is too slow.

It's not gonna work out. The AI was reverted back to normal in NM just to be easier, at first.

Second, if they nerf tank'n'spank, there WILL be a new meta out, and it's going to be the same thing all over again - professions will be undesired, some will be desired even more and PUGs WILL want you to run those.

Keep in mind the average PUG... is the average player. And the average player isn't too bright. They NEED a meta to function with, they NEED builds because they can't, or don't want, to come up with their own thing. They don't want to think actually, they want to play. The meta doesn't require them to think too much.

It's very easy to set a PUG for an area like FoW. Because for them, as someone explained earlier... you have the skills (you're in the group) or you don't (you're not in the group). It's THAT easy.